My friend Melody Botting and I were having a discussion about women and self-sufficiency and it got me to thinking about where things stand in the year 2008 in regards to etiquette and chivalry.
You see, I'm old-fashioned, and I was raised in a different time. I was taught by my mother that you held a door open for a lady, that you carried her packages for her, and that at the dinner table, ladies first ... you didn't take a bite of food until all ladies present took one first.
Now, I'm not saying that a woman CANNOT do those things for herself, I am just demonstrating deference and respect by these simple gestures. I am NOT being condescending or demeaning, or trying to illustrate that men are in any way superior to women. Nor am I flirting! Well, I might be flirting but it's not germane to this discussion, because I will show the same courtesy to all women whether I am flirting or not!
So, here's the question of the hour: I face this dilemma every day...
Who in their right mind invented the double door? I an referring to the set of doors inside the other set of doors. You know, you go into a restaurant, and you hold the door for the ladies, and then there is ANOTHER DOOR INSIDE! So once the ladies walk through the outside door that you are holding open for them, they are suddenly caught are caught in the conundrum of what to do NOW when faced with the second set of doors?
Do they all stand there and wait like in the tiny vestibule like packed sardines while I close the outside door, walk to the inside door and open it? Or do they open the door themselves and risk showing me disrespect by not acknowledging my original act of courtesy?
Typically, one of the ladies will open the door and then hold it open for everyone, and then when I come in last, the second dilemma occurs:
Do I just walk through the door that is being held open for me, or do I take the PASS? That is, do I move to hold the door open, so the lady holding the door open can go ahead, leaving me to hold the door open for myself.
This pass is often an awkward moment. And I either get a bewildered look or an "eat crap and die look." But if I just walk through the door that is being held open, all of my upbringing flashes before my eye and I fell like I am letting my mother down!
So what do you think? Am I just being old-fashioned, or should we keep the traditions alive? What is the place of chivalry in today's double door society?
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Always Always hold the door your mama taught you right. A REAL woman will appreciate it. The rest don't matter. By the way guys appreciate it also.
Hi RW! Wow! What a dilemma! Personally if I were in that situation I would probably just want you to walk through the door that I am holding open. I appreciate old fashioned manners from men but sometimes if we are just trying to get somewhere it just makes sense to walk through the door. What I do not appreciate from some men is when they think that women are inferior or we can't hold a candle to their intellect. Which i am sure you don't think that way. You might be opening up a can of worms w/this post. Spectacular Sunday conversation! KM
I am with Barry - forget the "eat crap and die" looks - you always hold a door for a lady. Yes, i can hold my own but I do appreciate a gentleman.
Good morning Richard,
I try to hold both of them open. By that I mean that if they are holding the second door open I take it from them and hold that one open too. What about the revolving door?
Richard, you are not being old-fashioned and we should keep the traditions alive. I experienced this a couple of days ago at a hotel entrance. Old-fashioned traditions are hard to break - "lady's first".
Not to worry Richard. Once you hold the outside door open for the gentle lady, she's out of the cold.
Your work there is done.
Barry...
That's the way I see it! Thanks for the support!
Kristin...
You must be VERY good at selling real estate, because your answer is perfect. Sometimes it's just time to get a table and get some food! I really enjoyed your explanation!
Leesa...
Well, I always suspected that you would feel that way! ;)
Don...
The revolving door has been the end of many a relationship! lol
Richard, I try to hold the second door open as well but it really depends how hungry they are going into the restaurant...sometimes I don't get the chance. Another topic for my blog log. Two weeks ago I held a door open for a woman and lost a client.
Michael...
It is a sign of respect! THX!
Lenn...
Well, that is logical and succinct and makes perfect sense to me!
Richard I...
Write it, right now! I can't wait to read about it!
I guess I am old fashion, I like doors being held open for me. Now I don't think about if they don't it is common practise up here, but I do appreciate when it is done. It shows respect.
Richard
You have to tell us the story
When I get to the inside of the foyer with double doors I return the favor to the gentleman that opened it. It gives me a nice opportunity to thank them with my actions for their kindness.
You're a gentlman Richard. I like that.
Richard ~ In the case of the double doors, if a man has held the first door open for me, I walk through and I either open the door myself (because I do have two hands), and continue holding it for him to come through too, or I may hold the door, stand back and say, "let me return the favor".
As for carrying packages, one afternoon I was leaving my law office job and there was a man with three cases of water waiting to cross the street, where I was crossing. He was managing two of them, but the third was still sitting on the sidewalk - he was going to cross again to get it. I had to cross at that point as well, and told him "let me help you, I have to cross anyway", so I grabbed the third case and carried it across for him. I don't think it's a matter of chivalry or sexism; it's helping another person (man or woman) out.
Barry...
Yes he does!
Kris...
Another marvelous explanation ... you see ... we are all conscious of courtesy! Excellent.
Kathy...
Ah, another excellent explanation, but I think that my sense of "obligation" goes beyond common courtesy, due to my upbringing. BTW, I will NEVER let the bagger at the grocery store push my cart out to the car, that just feels weird to me! lol and thanks for commenting!
Chivalry! I must have been pretty tired because I was trying to spell that word but couldn't!
I am with KM and Lenn on this one. The gesture is what is important. The second door is the job of the one closest. I will tell you the opposite- Yesterday I was at 'Pirate Days' dressed in full garb as many other people there. Some of the wenches were overly flirting with the men. I was not. However, some dude grabbed me and kissed me. He got slapped! Now that is the opposite of chivalry!
Mel...
The nerve! Now THAT is sexist! OH, BTW, in the office, I never even TOUCH a woman, other than a handshake. I think that in the business setting, maintaining professional diatance is important, although I will still open the door for them and catty their parcels up the stairs, but NO touchy-feely nonsense!
Hi Richard. Double doors help keep the cold outside.
Open the exterior door and just let the chips fall as they may on the inside door. You can't worry about everything.
You sound like your are single? Who is the lovely young lady sitting at the table?
Thanks for writing,
Ken
Ok, in his defense, we were not in a professional setting. The other women there were being a bit silly. The reaction of his friends was priceless so no harm done. BUT I hope it hurt!
I am sure they appreciate you. Now I am off again. It ends this evening. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Blog posts to follow...
Ken...
Oops, no ...happily married for many, many years! I just relate well to women, so I am a harmless flirt! My frequent "blog model" is a business associate! BTW I am always seeking volunteers for photos ...ladies?
Mel...
Just got into character a little too much, I expect! Go cure some dogs!
Richard, to me your question is a rhetorical one. There will always be a place for chivalry and good manners. It is not only polite and proper, but necessary. In a society where we are losing our sense of propriety and purpose, being polite, but courteous is the one thing that can demonstrate or genuine nature as caring human beings. Great post!
Bo
Richard, I agree with Lenn and others. When confronted with the 2 door dilemma and my husband or some other gentleman opens the first door, I walk through and hold the second door for him. We usually both laugh.
And yes, please keep the traditions alive, especially the traditions of southern chivalry. Good manners make life so much more pleasant.
Richard, YOU KEEP ON being the GENTLEMAN that your mother raised! I hold the second door open for men daily and usually give them the: "Let me get this one for you" with a bow and hand flourish. The line is crossed only if a pinch or tap occurs, by either party!
Hello there My old-fashioned friend-Let's see, a gentlemen,a wordly scholar of big words, a excellent photographer. How many more hidden talents you got. Oh I know! An excellent blogger. Your mama would be proud. Personally, its nice if a guy holds the door open for you but I return the favor if there is a double door, or if I'm in a totally different situation and I get to a door first, I hold it open for the guy or gal whichever the case maybe. I just think it is the polite thing to do instead of having the door close in someone's face. I laughed at the Oops (above) but your save was phenomenal. It's nice to see there are not only old fashioned men but also ones that have moral integrity like you do. Very refreshing my friend. Hope your Sunday was a good one. Take care and I'll see you next time. KB,KS and KTF always.(Glad I came up with shorthand for that ending)
Richard, nice bit of nostalgia for us old fogies. I will continue to hold doors and walk on the outside. It was the way I was taught.
Mel...
Same to you! ;)
Bo...
That was so well stated that I can't add anything! Thanks.
Shirley...
It does feel a little awkward, but most of the time a good natured laugh will loosen things up! THX
Jane...
NO touching, I agree ... but tips graciously accepted! lol
Pat...
Somehow Mel and I got into a discussion and women being able to take care of themselves, and this started as a more serious pot but I lightened it up quite a bit because it's Sunday! Thanks, as always!
I've taught my kids to hold the door open for anyone if they get there first and always for their elders. I will not object to anyone holding a door for me, as I would do the same for them. If a man wants to take the door from me and let me walk through first, why would I not honor what he sees as good manners? Why would anyone reject any degree of politeness that comes along? It doesn't say to me that I can't open a door, it says someone has decided to do something nice.
We all know when someone is being condescending or sexist. I hate that crap.
Richard, I so much enjoy your thoughts. Only YOU worry about this stuff. I try to open both set of doors with my bumbling self. Some women I pal around with want to open the doors themselves. I just do my best in all these situations and don't sweat it even a nanosecond. You however can write a blog about it so I am parked for what I SHOULD be doing : ) Knowing me, I've been doing it wrong all these years LOL.
Keep the traditions alive and hold the door as your Mama taught you.
MEL, atta girl lady!!!!!!
Elaine...
I love the way you put that into words! Thank you very much.
Gary...
It all started with a story Mel told me last night. She had a point to prove and I started to write about that, and when I thought of the double-door thing I changed the whole post to reflect just that!
The truth is, we are in a business dominated by women, so we need to be mindful of how they view certain behaviors! I have seen way too many a boor approach a businesswoman and ask: "hello little lady, is your boss available?"
Cameron...
She's a pistol, that's for sure!
I love for a gentleman to hold the door open for me----and I don't mind taking my turn holding the next(double)door open for him :)
You go Richard! Ladies will always appreciate gentlemen. Even when my husband and I hate each other, he'll open the door for me and if there are double doors, I'll get the second for him. Whether you're Angry, in a hurry or whatever, it only takes seconds to be courteous. Keep it up.
Kara...
I guess it really is that simple! THX
Trunda...
It's just the way that I was brought up! ;)
Richard,
I hate to say it, but in situations where complete strangers walk up to a door at the same time, I have seen both men and women walk in and not even bother to hold it behind them - they just let it go as they pass knowing someone is behind them.
When my hubby opens the door for me in a double door situation, I will open the next door, go through as I am holding it for him behind me. Works for us.
Well in those ways I'm pretty old fashioned..........man opens first door - 2nd door the woman can open........but -.......if one woman is holding the door for others.....the man when he reaches the door should take over the holdingr and let her go first... I have to say I certainly appreciate that you would even be asking the question! In my eyes that makes YOU a GENTLEman..:-)
The whole thing is just all too confusing, but I myself am pretty old fashioned when it comes to holding the door.
Sandy...
I have been "caught" holding the door for a long time because I will not let it close in some one's face. It's no big deal, just treating them with courtesy!
Liz...
Aw, you're making me blush ... but thanks! Glad to know that the old ways are still held in high esteem.
JL..,.
Mel got me started!
Bang, bang!
And they're off...
You really should go back and see the comments left on JL's post.
Mel...
I did and you're right ...hysterical!
Thanks for writing this blog! I thought I was the only one who worried about the Triple "D" (Double Door Dilemna). Fortunately, I live in a smaller demographic, and chivalry is still acceptable; I only get berated 1 out of 10 times when I take the pass- it is appreciated the other 9 times.
Okay... you asked! Here comes the rant from the southern belle! So refreshing to see that there are still gentlemen left in the world besides my husband. It must be so confusing for you "real men" out there. I have told my husband on many occasions that I feel sorry for the guys who are trying so hard, with nothing but good intentions and get ramrodded (my southern phrase) by a female who is so insecure that she doesn't even know who she is! I have taught my sons that they had better display all the ettiquette I have drilled into them.
Now before you go thinking I spend my time rocking and fanning on the porch drinking sweet tea, you should understand a little of my farming background. Not to make this comment all about me, but it is important to note that I can swing an ax and split firewood or bail hay with the best of the guys. In fact, I just spent two entire days this week doing helping my husband drop two very old oak trees that were damaged by lightning. Amazing the workout I got! I could literally pick up some guys who have held doors open for me, but I kindly thank them for their consideration and allow them be a gentleman. It makes me feel valued. Maybe that's what those snotty (another fave southern phrase) are suffering from - they don't feel valued.
Richard: You didn't need that client anyway! As for all you other "real men" out there, don't sweat it. Keep on showing that chivalry. It elevates you in the opinion of "real ladies" out there. It makes you look gallant and distinguished. Here's a note for you "real ladies" out there: you should stand at the door, patiently and wait on that gentleman to open the door. It does not make you weak or inferior - it makes you a "lady."
Sorry I got so carried away with the comment - blame it on my wonderful southern upbringing! LOL
It has always seemed to me that the person who gets to the door first might consider it a considerate move to open it for whomever is behind them. what's the point of standing and waiting for another person? Opening doors, carrying packages, assisting others when in difficulty is common sense and good manners. -- oops had to fix a typo!
Scott...
Why do we sound like a Seinfeld episode? lol and thanks.
Celina...
What a nice comment, I really enjoyed it, although I must admit at first I pictured you on the porch sipping that tea! lol
But manners and gentility are part of a civilized society, and sometimes, it is indeed the little things that make the difference!
Alexandra...
I hold the door for delivery people too! It is just common sense and good manners! BTW I have a niece named Alexandra and have always liked that name!
I like Celina's comment. You will not catch me swinging an ax but I will stand and wait for a short period of time.
Richard- haven't read all the previous 47 responses, however, the purpose of a double door is to provide a buffer from the outside elements, keeps the heating and cooling and costs down. Also, for high rise buildings with elevators it helps keep the elevators from being affected by changes in pressure.
As for chivalry, I just call it being polite. I hold the door open for anyone behind me and I thank anyone holding the door open for me.
I stopped being polite for a short period. I was riding the B.A.R.T. train into San Francisco, where I worked, and there was a young woman about 8 months pregnant on a hot August day. I offered my seat to her and she read me the riot act. I said a simple no-thank you would have sufficed and flipped her off, at which she took offense again, but, the crowd was with me.
So, my advice, (legal disclaimer - I am not a lawyer to a social etiquette writer so don't hold me responsible for anything I write) err on the side of politeness.
Mel...
It's just one of those things we do!
Mike...
Excellent points. I think that I read somewhere that perfume and cologne was banned on BART? That would explain the riot act mentality!
Oh this is a sore subject at my home. This logic of opening doors and such was NOT by any means even taught to my husband (in my opinion). When my oldest son turned 4 he was taught to ALWAYS open doors and carry things for girls. And leaving the dinner table before everyone is done is another thing that grates on my nerves about his family....they were never taught that it is rude. I could go on and on about them but won't bore you like that. Anyway both of my boys hold open door and won't let me carry anything unless their arms are full. The men in my family have always treated me that way so I grew up expecting it and I expect the same from my boys.